Assalaamu alykum..


Update…Its a,months back sice i posted that update. have no computer and a phone only with little internet acsess and time.

Sadly our gilrs were never admitted into this islamic scholl , branch of ahsan ul uloom Karachi under supervision of mufti zarwali khan.

they wasted 1 month on empty promises being admitted and and we had to spent thousands of rupees for books ad on back Tags) in this institution nothing but slime up other backsides, running for positions and family politics and racism rules the day.

Teachers are hired by an unquakified principal not having any educatioanl background in leadership of a school, forget about an islamic school.

women awho wear make up, berelvis etc are hired without checking their standards of ilm in deen anad dunya and real qualifications to teach and graduation certificates of the teaching association.

the curriculum is absolutely laughable, no organisations, books to teACH ARE taken from here and there.

haraam picture activities, paintings on walls of animate objects, principals and teachers with make up, no clue how to teach.

Teachers and parents complains are brushed aside and ideas for improving this school and provide quality education are dismissed.

The female and male principal ( a married couple0 are seldom present in that school n are only busy going to umrah with mufti sahib.

Its all about making money in that school and the owner of that school has no clue, neither his uncle mufti za wali khan, whats going on in that school.

the principals never arrive in beginning  of office timing but close to instead of 8am.  often the female principal is not present several times during the weeek.



Uupdate… due to the Mercy of Allah and the dua of brothers and sisters, our kids joined a Islamic school about a week ago. still they’ll properly will begin first grade in most subject, and besides English, math, silence  in upper levels, maybe Arabic, but hifs and nasara are available to learn. They still want get real quality education considering the country we live in, but thats a huge step toward  a better future. i hope. his believes are still the same and and believes females  should learn in house everything form another women, not a educational institution, ie . I wish that our girls could became a qualified midwives to help other Muslim ladies, females in general. he propagates still that they cant learn like this as in  times of sahaaba they had no school to learn this. this can only be a statement of a man and a person who had no insight how complex actually pregnancy and delivery and postpartum care is which requires anatomy lessons as well, etc..  by  all respect this logic should be applied to madaris education as well and labeled haaraam as in time of the sahaba they were no madaris of the type today existed and no mass graduation or admission took place in form school teachings on schedule ..

too being told its believed to be  jaddo afflicted( me thats why i might state those things and iom not in my senses and my husband would surely never do such things isnt going to help our situation at all!! Im not insane, I’ve not lost my senses , neither do I make up what ive written before.

I swear by Allah, the books, the malaaika and the entire creation Im not a liar and my kids will proof witness to this facts and im  not stating this due to jadoo afflictions!

I’ve contacted local ulema, friends  who are ulema to just sit with us and talk and give us solutions and naseehat to our problems. but no aalim ever replied, no email from hardhat desai has reached my inbox or spam for months.i dint know why

so if this happens to muslim women and her children, what should i do? I can write down my whole live since conversion which was never a easy and pleasant one. but ill might be labeled a complete liar or ungrateful wife and muslim  woman which seem to ne he standard reply when a woman like me resorts for help as nobody is helping or listening.

Yes im ungrateful at times, l.ike most men and women and children. but im not pagal, not shameless, neither disobedient. im broken down .

im still waiting for ulema and their replies.i sent to local madaris and abroad and to hadhrat desai. but i don’t receive any reply on my mails.Perghaps its getting lost on either side


I request any Muslim and especially Ulema Haqq to provide me valid proof for the following claims as
I’m left alone defenseless struggling to provide my children education which my husband , who follows Hadhrat Mufti A.S. Desai.

Our oldest child is 11 Years OLD AND YOUNGEST 6. None can actually read, write or understand their own mother language, forget about other subjects and languages

My husband follows his sheikh in this regard to the extreme( in our marriage which brought much unnecessary suffering and sanctions , loneliness to the point of blank mental breakdown and severe health problem, mockery from tghe ummat, disatncing of Muslims from us, hassad, evil eye ,jadoo on our family..

And my husband , an aalim , and previous twice married man with kafir children and claims All secular education is absolutely haraam and every Islamic and secular school is haraam and girls and females in general are not allowed to receive education in any way but being taught cooking, cleaning, sewing and being a slave as marriage is slavery..

Sadly i think my husband misunderstands it quiet a bit.Nowhere have i read  hadhrat saying this type of stuff and i should show him  my proof in Islam and from hadhrat for me claiming that children, Muslims have the right of education and females are not  prohibited from education.

My husband states that hadhrat desai and sharia rulings states that all secular education is haraam, all Islamic schools all over the world are haraam, girls madrassas are haraam, only stiff plain madrassa education( which by the way has urdu peoetry and urdu language are included and a student has to have some basic secular education in math and urdu in order to study and be able to read and write)Even sex separated schools, even Islamic schools are haraam and teachers faassiq and theyb teach haraam.

girls in particular have no right for education and hadith clearly states to prohibit females from learning writing and reading as it will ruin their character.

Yes, Hadhrat Desai states  that the system of nursery and secular education and intermingling and certain kuffar related educational actions are haraam.( AKA KUFFAR HOLIDAYS, HARAAM PICS, VIDEOS ETC.)

Which makes sense and I agree

So my husband OPTED FOR HOMESCHOOLING. SADLY ONE MAN IN HIS 60’S( HIS AGE) CANT TEACH NEITHER SUPPLY ALL THE NEEDED SUBJECTS, NEITHER MATERIAL OR TEACHERS TO DO THE JOB.besides some math, or English which too has had been not done well and kids still lack behind greatly.

Too we have no relatives or i any friends here to help educating 5 children and helping with housework. too aim chronically sick, weak, exhausted and stressed out and due to some problems we have no peace in our home and all are under non stop stress. kids fight all day and clean for the most part and stay indoors.

I fought for years for the kids to be able to get out and walk and play to use their build up energy and get some light and fresh air daily, which i stopped getting once married in Pakistan to him.Only indoors ,thus many wonderful health problems popped up. And if outside than in thick burqa in black color which dioesen breath and draws the heat on me like a magnets thus giving me breathing and fainting problems for years..( due to injunction of hijaab too females are not allowed ton receive any type of education, as its an excuse to leave the home and in girls madrsaaa girls are only being taught how to argue and disobey their husbands and in laws due so learning’ and thus  their rights . He too claims the same about secual eductaed females and uneducated` females that they only argue and disobey to to their secular knowledge and secular knowledge is waste of time. an and hadith my husband likes to deny)

He , neither I, are skilled enough or educated enough to teach most things to children. Neither do we have the time , material{ halaal without pictures and written by Muslims}, neither any type of curriculum, lesson planning, printers , etc..

Too our personal situation does not allow us to home school and in 6 years of my husband claiming he home schooled , a little English here and a little math here, our kids , aged 11, 10, 9, 7, 6 cant  read really on their own( besides our son who is an exception  by himself, dont know even seasons of the year, month of the year, time telling, comprehension, urdu, Arabic,(arabic numbers, moth..)

i followed by husband obediently in all he taught me and told me. Putting our little girls and me in extreme,e hijaab, spending most of our times indoors, which is no way mentally or biophysical productive. Living in a hot, bad lighted humid moldy home. with growing children . I obeyed. We putt our  little girl in strict hijaab from infancy on.As taught be his sheikh and elders. By age of 2 their all wore burqa and scarf, Even in extreme heat and nights to sleep. Their hair is really damaged.. earlier.

sex separation as well from infancy.

Kept away along with me from society, neighbors. Not allowed to talk to them or play with other kids as they are all faasiq`, and endanger our morals and imaan and i as woman would only gossip outside in front of  door.

Thats also one of the reasons why i and children  couldn’t learn  urdu for 12 years of marriage.

I can elaborate here more but its getting off the topic.

When i reasoned they are illiterate and have right secular education and deen. He states  I’m wrong and the poof is that nabi sslalaahu alayhi wa sallam was illiterate and thus No Muslim need secular or any type of education to worship Allah.

so i replied as well that hardhat advised me , and other ladies, and males to read the books of the pious , aka moral stories of saints , fazali amal or behetsi zevar to get closer to Allah . And ladies too should be able to write ulema for qurries and how in heavens or hell can one find out about halaal and haraam , ie e numbers, vaccine ingredients, etc, if one cant read and write and inst educated about what going on around the world.

Females only have to learn how to cook, clean, have children, raise the,, sew clothe, obey and serve and please their husbands and in laws..

My husband claims our way of live, aka extremes in many points, are in absolute conjuration with hadhrat desai, but he still;  still until today shown me any letter that he stated or supported our way of extremes.

But complains about me and mistrust me and labeling almost all haraam. Beds, carpets, geesers, hot showers, etc.. All haraam and bidat and luxuries…. I will tell on request what in details.

I lived with my kids long enough under self induced poverty, extremes, sanction in name of islam.

I cant take it anymore.

Every aalim and Muslim calls for female staff in schools, madrassa,midwives, lady doctors, dentist, lab  and x ray personal, etc,  hospitals, counters, Muslim engineers, doctors, etc, etc.. hoe in heavens should this happen if everything is labeled haraam. if this would be truly the case than islam would have become a religion of stupidity and ignorance in every field.

the first C section had been performed by sahaaba, one of the first one to write and who m,ade the pen wasIdris alayh  isalaam, manty of the sahaabia were we eduxctae in medince, writing reading, hadith, quraaan

My husband too beilieves that its not good for females to become haafiz due tio their menses. so hr detested that our gilrs become hafiz. i fight for their rights.

One point to note is that he has been married before me and adopted 3 kidfs intio the famikly, /thiose children he put all efforrts in tio eductaed them asecular, deen wise and made sure they bec ame haafis and i have to hear that for years how much he misses those kids and how much he loves them and how much effort he putb into these kids. /fibnally that wife left along with her kids,

theyb were allowed to receive secualr eduicatin, befirsddmn others, hawere in an islamic school, giot deeniay, and became haafuiz and they werte niot in strict purdah is oin  our case, neither then wife. they did not wear niqaab, hijaan amny tyoe dsince age of 2 years, and were not kept indoors  and away form all as in our case.

wehn i con frionted my husband he said he had permission form hnadhrat desia as hadhrta desua saixc he had no right of the kids rtthus he shopuld not buity any hurdle between the wife and ther kids. ie vaccinations are haraa,m ans that wife wanted to get her kids c=vaccinate dso my husvband said they are haraam and he consukted hadhrat and he advi9ced let her vaccinate her children and dont let her decide between you and her kids.

so how much sharia right and zstatue did he have over this wife as he says he has over me , including having the sharia granted right over me to assess my emails, letters, messages, phone calls, etc to prvent me from straying….which i readily gave to him until i had enough , last moth

I feel a bit sorry to go public.

but i dont receive replies and advice from hardhat neither local ulema as they all block and dont want to interfere in other peoples affairs even though i ask for sharia rulings, help a woman in Pakistani and her kids will be always at loss and rights only on papers and men always right and supported

so i have no other option but to go public.

as my husband dont change in this regard at all and we waste precious time and he will be dead one day and m y son has tp

support 4 sisters and me and later his own family. How , though begging and selling onions while he got many abilities and interest which could be .

He says risq is fixed, okaayy. but in which way one dont know and we have to work for our  risq a little bit and dont put our families and ourselves into not needed sufferings!

May Allah forgive me..but i have no choice .We need help

Wa slaam

i feel sorry to state that my life since marriage and conversion is just like the real life book.. Not without my daughter.. Nicht ohne meine tochter. many of those fears and negative extreme report seen and heard in meadi has actually happen to be true. at least in my muslim life and m,y kids life


15 comments on “Secular Education ,IS ANY TYPE OF EDUCATION IS HAARAAM IN ISLAM ????

    • Wa alykumussalaam brotherr,
      Im very sorry for the late reply but ive had no computer.

      Might i ask for what reason you want to talk to him?
      Situations aggrevated and n im going back soon to my country along with my kids .


  1. Assalaamu ‘alaykum

    I suggest contacting Maulana sahab or other Ulamae Kiraam with a different email.
    The lag in replies has happened with me, and when I used a different email, the replies came within the expected times mashaa’Allaah.

    Maulana Desai sahab doesn’t condemn secular education,he condemns the means used to acquire it, as expressed in his writings;

    and also;

    Q. The evil and immorality raking universities and all western educational institutions are undeniable. Doctors and professionals in other essential fields are necessary accessories of life. Is it permissible for Muslims, males and females, to pursue studies at these universities in view of the need for these professional services?

    A. While it is permissible to become a doctor, it is not permissible to study at a haraam university where a host of evil and immorality is committed. It is also not permissible to experiment with dead human bodies. Thus, if the only way in which to become a doctor is to perpetrate evil and haraam, and to contaminate and even eradicate one’s Imaan, then it is not permissible. People have difficulty understanding this Shar’i concept of strict prohibition despite the need. In fact most people rebuff the prohibition. Their attitude is the consequence of their gross failure to understand the maqsad (goal/purpose) of life on earth. Earthly life is temporary – extremely short-lived. In relation to the never-ending, everlasting life of the Aakhirah which cannot be quantified even in billions and trillions of millennia or trillions of light years, mankind’s earthly life is not even infinitesimal. It is in reality non-existent in that relationship. Allah Ta’ala has despatched us to earth to pass through a stringent test of Imaan. The few days we have hear on earth have to be constructively employed in preparation for Maut, Barzakh (the life in the Qabar), and Aakhirah (life in Jannat). Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said: “What relationship do I have with the world? My analogy is like a horse-rider (in the hot desert) who rests for a while in the shade of a tree (then leaves the shade to set out in the desert heat to reach his destination).” “Be on earth like one who crosses the road…..” In the pursuit of this lofty Maqsad, every obstacle, poison and detraction must be incumbently abandoned. Whatever is inimical and negatory for the achievement of the Goal of the Aakhirah must compulsorily be shunned regardless of the worldly adverse consequences. Western educational institutions are vice dens where immorality (fisq and fujoor, in fact kufr) reign supreme. For the acquisition of the undeniable benefits which these immoral institutions of kufr offer, it is most unintelligent to sacrifice Imaan and Akhlaaq (moral character). No person ever emerges unscathed from the conflagration of immorality and kufr into which he/she plunges when entering university. May Allah Ta’ala save Muslims from the calamities of these haraam institutions.

    Q. Is the study of accountancy permissible?

    A. While the subject of accountancy is permissible, the university environment is haraam. Intermingling of sexes, music, drugs, liquor, and other acts of immorality and kufr are rife at all universities. On account of these haraam acts, it is not permissible to study at a university. Perhaps the subject could be pursued by means of a correspondence course.

    [These Q and A’s have been taken from

    For an Islamic School, please take a look at Hira Foundation School; it’s a branch of Darul Uloom Karachi, under Mufti Taqi Saheb.

    Regarding your Husband’s attitude, please look up the relevant portions of the ebook

    Regarding Jadoo, please go through the Q and A’s here;


    • Assalamu alykum .
      sorry for the late reply.

      well then i guess my husbanad himself must understand a lot wrong of his own sheilhs teachings.

      ive reasoned months with him, years and my neighbour.

      if one cant apply homeschooling and healthy living conditions then by no means such a person deserves a family and children.

      sorry to state , but the majlis are very ignorant in field of jinn and jadoo and whos an amil.ive read all that . i dont want to have anything to do with tha majlis anymore. when i claled for help nobody replied and i crae beeswax whay the maslis states.

      following these extreme people has made me and my family mentally instable, cronically sick and malnurished racist, lonley, hated….


  2. I am sorry to hear of your plight.

    Why don’t you approach your elder brother? Perhaps he may be able to help.

    If you cannot contact Hadhrat Maulana AS by email then try post or fax.

    Lastly, make lots of dua


  3. I am sorry to hear of your plight.

    Hadhrat Maulana AS Desai Saheb usually responds. Try again. If email doesn’t work, try to contact Hadhrat via post or fax.

    Why don’t you approach your elder brother? Perhaps he may be able to help you.

    Do not forget to make lots of dua for yourself and myself


  4. I would advise to test the Imaan of the husband. This behaviour seems very insane. Putting little children into Niqabs even at home is not something with a sound basis. There is reason to doubt his Aqeedah. Does he believe that Allah is a body?
    So if he can be proven to be a murtadd the marriage will be divorced immediately and the woman can flee with the children without any sharii objections.

    If he cannot be proven to be a murtadd the normal way for divorce has to be taken. But it should succeed because this way of raising the children does not really make them believers. In order to believe one has to understand. Blind belief is kufr.

    I am not able to read the comments here. Maybe you could send me an email.

    Wa Salam


    • Wa alaykumssalaam. shukria for help. or trying so.. actually no possibilities. at least he allowed now kids into a islamic school. Thats a huge step toward a small step for betterment. I dont expect quality secular education in the place we live.and i doubt severely that with the certificates of such aschool and teachers who cheated themselves up and beat kids up and adhere o physical and verbal punishments , instead of teaching according g to the child’s abilities and understanding, but at least the deeni side will be taken care off without pointing into insanity but supervised by ulema haqq


  5. May Allah help you my dear sister in Islam . You need to ask moulana Desai about what rights you and your children have in Islam . Don’t depend on your husband. May Allah guide him but he is grossly ignorant of the shariah. Contact the majlis and explain your situation. Inshallah we hope things work out for you and your family

    Liked by 1 person

    • wa alykumussalaam..

      I did some days ago. I do not receive any replies. you are welcome to copy and post it to hadhrat desai and mention Im umme muhammad from Pakistan…

      I dont believe and I know he has never really consulted hadhrat in these matters and described our whole problems incorrectly, detailed a along with my chronic weakness and health problems, having no family here at all.
      I keep fighting for a more human Islam and life.. But
      im being told all my married live , marriage is slavery, and wives are prisoners, and islam and dunya is prison for mumin.. okey.. i accept to a certain degree…By all now all those years, my brother dont care either about us, and ulema friends distance themselves instead of helping and replying and doing counseling.
      our marriage is on rocks and i try to get me and my kids out of this country and life as soon as possible.

      all those years most of what has been reported by converted females, had been proven to be true.Its not an issue of not being able to adapt or being cross westernized.. but my and kids lives are in extremes..
      i miss my home, my country, in intelligent people around me..
      sadly when a woman speaks up than shes considered evil, disobedient, ungrateful, shameless, stupid, spoiled , and left on her own.

      Im too tired to hear in and out im owned by my husband and the kids and inside islam and if i leave islam or him then i have no rights over the kids either, no right to ask maids, no right to complain, no right to ask for anything, no reason to break down m mentally, physically.. used and kept like house pet.
      Hes certainly good man in many ways, and tries his best to help, but he cant take care of children and a 23 year old younger wife at all in the right way. im crying every day for years. daily fights occur by now as i dont tolerate that crap anymore. fight are an daily issue by now. as i cant no more. even my kids see his contradictions.
      he helps cleaning, i see the good in him too, but this education stuff and his extreme few’s have to stop.

      i have left islam several times as i cant live anymore with those never ending difficulties Allah put us in.
      i took the burqa of the kids, and scarf off at night as they chocked duirng sleep, their har is broken..teeth karaab, ongoing vitamin d deficiencies, etc..
      hadhrat told me once to decide for my family ans sanctions, etc, wisely and with common sense..
      he does not accept medicla proof , tyests , studies whicg suppottr my claims and ifnings, stating wetsern meicine is jharaam, fruad and from kuffar and not to believe and hadhrta says this also. without having had medical and nutritional education as kafir and test done studies found i and kids too would have been dead by now are at least severely disabled from deficiencies, etc…

      when confronted he states he hasn’t time 40 days in row in 6 years to teach kid( math , English, basic islaamiyat) and when i confront him in front of others and ulema he says he homes schools for 6 years..they cant even tell time, have no basic vocabulary, dont know basic of of islam, many masoon dua….)….

      they are far behind their abilities and by now they have quiet aversion to study anything..specially our son.
      when i reason he laughed it off, and due to my insisting and fight for my kids rights and human life they are allowed now to go in a :park: one hour a day , out of 24 hours, which dont have swingeing nothing….
      too my whole family is severely afflict with jadoo, jin possession, evil eye, hassad,, we went to 7 amils in 1 year and daily jinn attacks of our home lefts us with just basics as all is being destroyed during non stop violent attacks of jin on household and kids and pets..
      those we too do not have time and ability to teach at home.
      ive rendered obedience and service to my husband always, defending him and sheikh everywhere, even though if argue. but im at the point i will leave islam once for all and return soon as can to my country and take my kids with me along contacting amnesty international, embassy, media..
      when i complain or reason than he believes and states to others im jadoo and jin afflicted thus cant reason right and …

      those im left alone altogether..thus im forced to expose openly to some of his friend and end public, which i feel very bad about.

      he doesn’t take naseehat in regard of hujaab and education of anyone but says hardhats says all this and he follows hadhrat…he doesn’t trust me really for years and claims he lost control over me..

      what control??? how much m,ore controll dies a man in Islam want over a woman and kids like us.

      ive been lured into Islam and Pakistani by buy only Muslim brother. then he left me alone in this country not caring at all.
      he tried to help once but since he dont respect elders, teachers and is opposite of hadhart desais teaching, we c;shed often… so

      despite all this i did what was expected form me behind my capacities and still raise my girls to be slaves of their husbands. and in laws, mothers….but i just want to die along with kids.

      i know it all sound extreme..
      pray please
      i know when confronted he states ts not correct what im saying and switches words and fact and uses English term to state himself correct as words have more than one meaning, as he says.

      for example.. rejection.. we argued about a certain issue and he rejected my idea and did the way as he wanted which would have caused many additional problems and waste of money in long and short term
      it ended up in a fight thus i called neighbor to help and show and he too agreed with my reasoning well thought out for good, and not to be-title my husbands authority
      so he said he did not a reject my idea , reasoning he just did not choose to follow….im i stupid??? its with so many thing he pulls out his English expertise and im left standing crying and yelling like an idiot. we started beating up each other while hes provoking me mentally and punishing me in corner of defenselessness and while im warning him to stop as i break down or will hurt him if he does not let me go, etc, he keeps saying.. go ahead, come punch me, hit me… so bang. he beast me up once severely during an argument that had bruises and injured spine. he claimed he beat the jin out of me. i managed to run to the new neighbors and he claims nowhere does it state its Bot allowed to beat women, and and if than only slight without leaving a mark or with a miswaak.. an there are no hadhit which state that..

      i told him in quraan it states that if a woman is disobedient to her husband, then admonish her, leave her beds and ..if she still refuses than beat her slight, so that it does not leave a mark, ie with miswak..he denied that.
      i gave hadhith which states he had been treating me wrong and put me in a state of desperation and defencelesnness.. he si i had no right to hit \or push him but a man has the right to beat his wife.
      okay.. fine

      i gave hadith and said iv not been disobedient, neither stopped ibaadat, lured around with other men, lost my shame, did zina, left islam, . he did not admonish me by talking wisely, accepting my vies , talks to hafhrat( if he writes him he puts blames on me and puts me in bad light, as im h/whoring around, disobey, him and am mentally not right) or local ulema, he did not refuse my food as next step, neither separated from our beds, which we dont share anyway( he believes and opopagates all my married live beds are haraam, bidat and nabi and sahab only slept on floors, which made me give my bedroom set bed away to miskeen after nika), as we have none really,..he beat me up, i fell, he picked me up i fell, he picked me up and beat me again until i could flee to neighborhood who help and support me a little bit….now.
      by now threres no more love in my heart for this m,an and i feel for years marriage and coming into islam and to pakistan , leaving all behind in ahaste was not a good idea…

      may Allah forgive me for speaking up openly… enough is enough.. an dim sure he den ies all what i say as one has o consult both sides and a woman is deficient of intelligence m, and most ungrateful to her husband..bla bla bla-


      • Inshallah I will send your complaint to
        Hazrat right away. May Allah ta’ala reward you and help keep you strong in your iman. Never lose hope.


        • Asssalaamu alaykum brother. Jazakaallah.
          due to the dua of those who care about my family, and husband and my husband as well to realize his folly, he finally admitted them school.. i broke down crying. Last week , shortly after your reply he went to a islamic school associated with the madrasa he graduated from, and got our 4 kids admitted. sadly fees are high just to study,,I know they will never receive quality education in Pakistan, due to many factors, but this admitting and him finally sat down and listen also to his teacher is a new beginning that things might change. i hope and pray my kids become well educated in islamic adab, islam and dunya to benefit themselves, their family and ummat. its a big starts brother. he too asked to works there,. so he is in same building to watch kids and special care has been promised for them as they had had no interaction with s
          society or schools or else.. should i leave the post on the blog.? I still wait for ulema to reply bur as its the issue here in Pakistan or most places , they stay silent and keep their noses out of family affairs and marriage problems and refuse to help…those aggravating issues and presenting the women always as evil here and transgressing. As in our case as well im left alone to fight due to severe jinn possession and jadoo different kinds on whole family . im the worst afflicted .So thus I dont get much support..May Allah reward you, guide me and family and all of us and forgive me


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